Curse

Apr 08, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I think it should be noted that there are different types of Energy Managements we are all talking about here. Most people are talking of energy conservation skills and attributes(Divine Favor, Expertise).

What I meant by monks having bad energy management is once you hit "low" they dont have direct ways to pull themselves up out of the hole. Necromancers all suffer from this as they have to dedicate an elite slot to do it. The other 4 classes however do have answers for that.

So energy management was a bad use for the idea I was getting at

Granamyr · Apr 08, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

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How many options do you think a warrior primary has for not doing melee damage?

A class doing melee damage is hardly what I would call pigeon-holed. Melee is too broad a category because you can then only have two classifications: Melee and Range.

Healer only is a pretty narrow definition of a role. A warrior can be a tank, a dueler, an area of effect damager, monk/caster assassin, bodyguard....the roles are endless and there are secondaries that match each of those roles. What can a primary monk be? A healer.....a protective healer.....that's about it. What are the only secondaries that compliment that role? Elementalist and Mesmer. Pretty narrow.....pretty pigeon-holed.

Maybe instead of coming up with ideas of where other classes are narrowly defined, actually try proving how wrong you all say I am.

The problem is with the primary attribute more than the skills (although I will still crusade for how bad Divine Spirit has become.....unforgivable). If Divine Favor bestowed its bonus every time you used a skill, monk skill or otherwise, then it would start to make a monk primary more attractive to other roles except healing. Now it would need some tweaking under this sytem so as not to be overpowered but I think this new system would apply more to ANet's diversity approach.

Every other class has wide reaching primary attributes with the exception of the warrior however the warrior has an indirect primary attribute in that it has the best armor. It's impossible to argue against the fact that the monk primary is too narrrowly focussed.....or at least no one has argued it successfully. Instead of futilely trying to do the impossible (and for who knows why), come up with ways to remedy the situation.

mostro · Apr 08, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Nobody said that you had to play as a healer when using primary monk. When the pre-made character debuted a while back one of the choice was a mo/wa called zealot or something which is a smiting monk (the only healing skill it had was orison). I tried a mo/n bipper/smiter the last BWE and it somewhat worked too.

Lazarous · Apr 08, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

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Originally Posted by granamyr

A warrior can be a tank, a dueler, an area of effect damager, monk/caster assassin, bodyguard

If you're saying a primary warrior has all these options at equal strength, you're mistaken.

Beyond that, most of your classifications are *extremely* narrow and are seperated by perhaps one out of 8 skills - i mean, you're seperating something like tank and bodyguard? dueler and caster assassin?

Everyone can play this game - how about this, a monk can be a reverse damage healer, a spot healer, a heal over time healer, a protection healer, a smite healer, an anti-heal smiter, a protection smiter, etc.

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Originally Posted by granamyr

Maybe instead of coming up with ideas of where other classes are narrowly defined, actually try proving how wrong you all say I am.

the main problem you're having is that you feel there is a massive split in choices for something like melee damage, while there isn't such a great wealth of options for more defensive or healing characters.

Consider that since there are so many ways of doing damage in this game, there are also many ways to counter that damage, which the monk has a great deal of access to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by granamyr

Every other class has wide reaching primary attributes with the exception of the warrior however the warrior has an indirect primary attribute in that it has the best armor. It's impossible to argue against the fact that the monk primary is too narrrowly focussed.....or at least no one has argued it successfully. Instead of futilely trying to do the impossible (and for who knows why), come up with ways to remedy the situation.

right, so soul reaping is less situational than divine favor.

You see healing (and by corollary defensive support) as narrowly focused because you don't distinguish between the different types of damage reduction options a monk has which work with divine favor. You can be a monk and not cast a single healing spell yet still make good use of divine favor. You wouldn't be making the best use of it, but then again neither would a primary warrior only using stances, or a primary mesmer only casting interrupts.

As for futility and arguing the impossible...i'll just say that you might be viewing the entire situation backwards.

Laz

Epinephrine · Apr 08, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

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Originally Posted by Granamyr

The monk gets an F in 2 categories (damage output, energy management) and is tied for last in armor. No other class fails in this many categories. This hardly meets my definition of "balance" or "fairness".

I'd have to say that that's a strange way to look at it. They have the best negative damage output (healing) and I think their energy management issues only come up when they are trying to match the damage output of multiple opponents. One on one the monk can take it.

As for the statement that monks are limited to being protective or healing, that's not really accurate either - they are anti-conditions, anti-hex - they can heal a player while smiting the hex off them, heal while dealing with the conditions (spells), pump up their allles' damage while healing them (DF plus buffs), deal damage to the enemy while healing their allies (ZF). You can build them to be the condition guard/hex guard (an anti necro), to work as an anti monk (scourge healing) to boost damage ouput and donate energy to your companions (Balthazar's spirit, Succor, Judge's Insight).

butcherboy · Apr 08, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I haven't spent a lot of time playing, but wouldn't a monk/necro solve a few issues with energy manangement, etc? I don't monger stats or have my spreadsheet of matricies of numbers around myself, but if necro's can steal energy and can deal damage, wouldn't that be a good match for those who feel "niched" as healers only? Who knows, maybe I will spend the 2 hours downloading the latest client of GW next Friday to see how that combo fairs in solo...

Correct me if I am way off, but don't all classes still get the ability to weild melee or ranged weapons? Although you aren't getting buffed by melee "spells" you can still buff up with protection spells so what you don't cause in damage you make up in time in the forray.

Jia Xu · Apr 08, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

The monk gets an F in 2 categories (damage output, energy management) and is tied for last in armor. No other class fails in this many categories. This hardly meets my definition of "balance" or "fairness".

Now I know most of you are saying/thinking, "Well monks aren't supposed to deal damage" or "that's what secondary classes are for". I was always under the impression that no class was pigeon-holed into one role and that you could make any class into what you want it to be. How is it then that we've all come to expect....nay, demand that all primary monks are dedicated healers!? Do you demand any other primary class to always perform a certain function?

well - the thing is, there are ways to make monks into offensive attackers. using smiting etc. can make a passable (not great) attacker. However, the reason primary monks are always healers is not because they are crap at everything else, but that they ARE SO MUCH BETTER at healing than any other character in the game to a ridiculous level. They get targeted so much in PvP, that if they aren't healing, people dont want them in the party because the other char classes can do offensive better.

- and in terms of balance - each character has a skill it excels at.
Warrior - Tanking, Melee
Ranger - Ranged damage, Pet (pve)
Elementalist - Stupid amounts of AoE
Mesmer - disrupt casters
Necro - screw warriors
Monk - Healing

It so happens that monks are the only truly defensive char class, so a lot of people think they are crippled. GW is a team game, and having a primary healing monk can keep your TEAM alive for way longer, giving out much more damage therefore, than an offensive monk. If monks were good at offensive as well, everyone would be one. (sorry for the rant)

Xellos · Apr 08, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

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Originally Posted by Granamyr

Yes and you'll notice that I have accused "no one" of being responsible for my opinion. Glad we could establish the obvious.

Good, I don't remember ever writing a statement saying that all 30 profession combinations should be equally powerful in a competitive setting. I might ask who exactly you're responding to with the above statements?

That's my point....you can't combine a monk with something to make him anything besides a healer. If you're a monk primary, you're a healer, end of story. That isn't true of any other class nor is it demanded of any other class. A primary mesmer could be anything, same with an elementalist. A primary warrior not only has strength but the best armor.....this also provides him with a wealth of roles to play.

Why are you people arguing with me on this when you know it's true? You guys defend a position you know to be flawed.....why? Who are you trying to score points with? Anet?

In top-tier competitive play, there isn't any variety period. You won't see a elementalist/warrior tank, you won't see a ranger/warrior tank, you won't see a DOT mesmer. Every class will eventually go back to it's original solid purpose. Ranger snipe, warriors melee, mesmer domination, blah blah blah.

The game isn't that balanced, everyone knows that. But it's fun anyways, and by far more balanced then any other game you can call right now.

Apr 08, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

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Originally Posted by Xellos

In top-tier competitive play, there isn't any variety period

how are you so sure?

Xellos · Apr 08, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

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Originally Posted by Blackace

how are you so sure?

Your right, only 3/6 classes are primary rooted. Necros are purely secondary rooted, and ele/mesmer can be somewhat versatile. But even then, more teams will probably pick mo/ over ele/mo unless theres a specific build or strategy to it. Same with mes/ele for nuking.

3/6 is still 50%. Add to the fact that necros don't count, and I'm sure I'm pretty much correct.

Apr 09, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Mo/mes and even War/Ele builds have so much vareity within them that it's kind of hard to say there will be no variety at the top though :/

Then theres War/nec and Ranger/nec, mo/mes and mo/el with wards and protections, mo/w and mo/r with stances or Melandrus. R/Mo or pretty much Ranger anything. Then the various elemental+caster combinations and mes+anything except ranger.

Freyas · Apr 09, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

In top-tier competitive play, there isn't any variety period. You won't see a elementalist/warrior tank, you won't see a ranger/warrior tank, you won't see a DOT mesmer. Every class will eventually go back to it's original solid purpose. Ranger snipe, warriors melee, mesmer domination, blah blah blah.

The game isn't that balanced, everyone knows that. But it's fun anyways, and by far more balanced then any other game you can call right now.

Obviously you haven't competed in top-tier(or as much as there is with the game in beta) GW PvP. Among the top guilds, I've seen a huge variety in builds- I got DoT's put on me, saw melee rangers, necromancer/monk protection healers, etc. The Fianna tend to use Rangers as trappers, not snipers, lots of mesmers at the top level use illusion magic rather than domination magic, etc. I've seen Elementalists that can tank far better than Warriors, but a "Tank" isn't really a good type of character for PvP, other than possibly as a Rezzer. Other players intelligent and will aim for your weak targets, not sit there and attack your warriors while your monks keep them alive. Warriors are good for damage-dealers and can make great rezzers since it's very difficult to take them out, and most mesmers don't sit there waiting for a warrior to cast a spell with an interrupt ready.

I have seen very little similarity between top builds- even when comparing KOR and n0, who pretty much dominated the ladder this last BWE. Roles are not nearly as static as you are thinking, and there's hundreds and thousands of different possibilities in top builds.

Xellos · Apr 09, 2005, 12:41 AM // 00:41

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Obviously you haven't competed in top-tier(or as much as there is with the game in beta) GW PvP.

A coach hasn't played the world cup before, so he automatically knows nothing. Good assumption.

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Among the top guilds, I've seen a huge variety in builds

Top guilds =! Top tier. My posts are all ideally speaking, and are not accurate reflections of the current metagame. If this confuses you, it's fault on my part.

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I got DoT's put on me

I never said DoT mesmers didn't exist. I said when you see mesmers, mostly they tend to stick to the lockdown/IW type. Lockdown more I think. Don't tell me in the current metagame, you get more conjure phantasms put on you then backfire/energy burn.

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melee rangers, necromancer/monk protection healers

So you see variety, and that's how a new game/beta goes. People try things. But even in this forum, nearly everyone has agreed that necro primary has no use. So unless you can somehow magically make things die like Tuon said people can, their just trying it out, that doesn't mean it was effective. Perhaps the necro/mo's build didn't revolve around divine favour, and there was a type of armour for the necro that gave a wee bit more then monk. That's not even a valid arguement then.

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The Fianna tend to use Rangers as trappers, not snipers

I know, and guess where they landed this BWE. I also stated that classes stick to their primary purpose, so unless traps are for necros, this only supports my arguement.

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lots of mesmers at the top level use illusion magic rather than domination magic, etc

And they were lockdown, not pip killers. Maybe a combination of both, but I doubt they were just there to kill you. So it's another form of lockdown, hooray. Same role.

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I've seen Elementalists that can tank far better than Warriors, but a "Tank" isn't really a good type of character for PvP

You mean the earth ele? Yeah, they can tank better then warriors, but then again, so can monks. Both provided by the fact that mesmers don't squish them. Like you said, a "tank" isn't a good type of character for PvP. Warrior/Monks are losing their monk line of skills more and more because the metagame has evolved where the warrior is targetted last, so you might as well not use that mending enchantment and spam more power attacks. I don't see a point in this, since it doesn't contribute to PvP, which is what I care about in this discussion. PVE has it's own line of abuse, it's called zealots fire.

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Other players intelligent and will aim for your weak targets, not sit there and attack your warriors while your monks keep them alive.

Which is why more and more people choose to be war/eles or anything that takes advantage of Victory is Mine! This move just might make it from flavour of the month to cookie cutter!

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I have seen very little similarity between top builds- even when comparing KOR and n0

Didn't they say when KOR and n0 fought in the n0 article, that n0 had 1 more monk, but 1 less ranger? And lost? They said they even changed their build a second time, and made counters, but lost due to coordination. I'm confused.

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Roles are not nearly as static as you are thinking, and there's hundreds and thousands of different possibilities in top builds.

Mmmm, maybe, but I've played enough competitive games to see that it'll eventually narrow down. The metagame evolves with time, so there won't be any creativity without new yet balanced expansions. Name me one rpg type game that has even come close to achieve this variety/balance so to speak. I'm looking at this from a realistic point of view. I did not say I know the cookie cutter, only that there will be. In the current metagame though, roles are very rarely exchanged. A ranger sniper will mostly carry conjure. A lockdown mesmer will most likely be domination based. A sword warrior will have victory is mine. Some of these flavours will pass in time, but some will be cookie cutters, and set in stone.

As long as the games not extremely balanced, variety will eventually die out. This has happened to every other game in history, Guild Wars is no exception. The only game that has enough variety for everything yet is balanced might be starcraft, but even that I doubt.

Tozen · Apr 09, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

ArenaNet only promised that every class would have a way to recover health.

Personally, I like this system better. It makes classes more unique than if they could all do the same tasks. What is the solution to a Monk's energy concerns? Play a mesmer and go inspiration. Really, there is no cocern at all with the duel class system.

Or, to not rely on the time it takes to cast inspiration spells without fast casting, a monk could choose the elementalist primary and focus exclusively on monk skills. You'd lose divine favor then, but gain the ability to make many heals before depleting your reserves and moves to manage your energy.

If you're looking for a perfect class, WoW has is the game for you. GW is the most balanced of any game I've seen. I assume that this post is addressing balance primarily, so I hope that the above comments have put some of your issues to rest.

And while I'm spouting opinions, I agree with an above poster that cookie-cutters are inevitable. BUT, GW has enough variety to keep fresh lists coming, so at least we'll keep getting more cookie cutters over time. It is also important to note that cookie cutters will eventually extend to teams because this is such a team-based game, so I think originality and potential will be preserved indefinitely.

Apr 09, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

I like this Xellos guy, he reminds me of someone...

mostro · Apr 09, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

I like this Xellos guy, he reminds me of someone...

Hopefully that memory does not involve Mind Wrack?

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 09, 2005, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Didnt get to read everything... but...

If a monk have good energy management... the world of GW will be over run by monk easily, as it was already hard enough to kill anyone under a monk watch without much energy management... (yes yes, I know all other factor like mesemer and stuffs... spare me the details, not now)

torry · Apr 09, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granamyr

Elementalist:
-Energy Storage
-At least 4 skills associated with energy management/recovery

Warrior:
-Very few, but decent energy management/recovery skills
-Adrenaline created as an alternative to energy

Ranger:
-Expertise
-Very few, but decent energy management/recovery skills

Necromancer:
-Soul Reaping
-Very few, but decent energy management/recovery skills

Mesmer:
-Every attribute line (except fast casting) has a decent energy management/recovery skill in it with Inspiration being the best in the game

Monk:
-Screwed
-Has the crappiest energy management/recovery skills in the game (Divine Spirit is laughable)

Yes, everyone likes to have a monk but the monk has to depend on everyone else. It sucks that the monk is so crippled in so many areas (damage, energy management, armor, etc).

YOu play 2 classes, dont you?

In any major game, it's the healers that set the pace of the gameplay. The endurance of the group. As long as there is healing, there is life, combat. If you allow too much meddling with the pace of the healing, you get a game that is impossible to balance. You got to keep the monks at a reasonable level of mana regen..?

Look at BIP; Necro pouring his elite into energy generation for a monk only, shows the huge value of more healing power. Because it shifts that base level ability of the group upwards.

Apr 09, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

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Originally Posted by mostro

Hopefully that memory does not involve Mind Wrack?

I thought it was Charles, Rex says he's more like me in my "TGH" days

PaulOtt · Apr 14, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

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Originally Posted by Xellos

I know, and guess where they landed this BWE.

Believe me, the one trapper in our build isn't why we did poorly this past BWE.

Aside from that, I pretty much agree with your point with one exception: Balanced games do exist. While cookie-cutters will appear in any game like this, I spent 9 years playing a PK MUD that was very nicely balanced.